Speaker 1: so a few days ago, I
found myself scribbling in my
phone.
Scribbling, that's funny, isn't
it?
How we even use that word.
Clearly, I was typing um, but
it felt like laying down
scribbles.
All about this, this idea of
the importance of being
uncertain and of course, there's
a homage there to the play, the
importance of being earnest.
I then didn't record the
podcast for last week, so if you
listen regularly, you might
have noticed that there wasn't
an episode last week, and in a
way then I thought, oh gosh,
that's an example of being
uncertain.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast, the space for deepening
self-awareness with profound
self-compassion.
I'm Henny, I write, coach and
speak about how exploring our
inner world can transform how we
experience our outer world, all
founded on a bedrock of
self-love.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you.
I hadn't told anybody I wasn't
going to do the podcast.
I just didn't do it.
It just didn't happen, and I
think that it is really
important in life that we're
able to manage uncertainty.
So, and of course, in the
environment that we're operating
in right now, there's an awful
lot that feels very uncertain
and and not in a good way.
So I would love to share these
thoughts that I jotted down.
I've got them in front of me.
I haven't reread them because I
kind of wanted to come back to
them fresh.
So I'm not quite sure what the
order of events is, and what I'm
actually meant to be doing is
getting ready to go to yoga.
So I might have to speak
quickly while I do this, but it
just felt right to be doing it
now and to be sharing this with
you now.
So one of the first reflections
that I jotted down is that
sometimes, when we're feeling
uncertain or uncomfortable or
untethered, we might gravitate
toward people who sound certain,
and I think we can all see this
.
I think you know most of us
will have an example of a time
in our life when we might have
done that, maybe ended up in a
relationship or a friendship or
or a job, or aligned ourselves
with a particular boss, you know
particular leader within the
organization who sounds certain.
It's very beguiling when people
sound certain, but certainty
often stifles nuance and debate
and it shuts doors to creativity
and fresh ways of solving
problems.
I have been following quite a
lot of the unfolding trans story
, the huge challenges that the
trans community are facing in
America and here and in other
countries.
And I think that is a beautiful
example, really beautiful,
terrible example of how absolute
certainty about how things
should be, must be, will be
creates a block and a shutting
down and fear for those who
don't fit that certain
perspective of how things should
be.
And so for me and I recognize
that there might be some really
kind of challenging things here
you know, we all come from very
different backgrounds, from very
different socio-political
perspectives, and I suppose one
of the things that I really just
sort of want to say as part of
being uncertain is being open to
ideas, to concepts and to
trusting that we are able to
accommodate more than one
perspective as we're working out
how things truly feel for us.
So here's another lovely
example of the importance of
being uncertain.
I just realised that the
recording levels on the mic were
set really low, so my voice
might now sound a bit louder for
you.
Adjust your machinery as
required.
So you know this willingness to
be open, this willingness to be
open.
You know, for me, part of being
uncertain is really about being
awake, and it's often seen as
being a weakness.
You know this idea of being
uncertain sitting on the fence.
You know Maggie Thatcher
famously once said this lady's
not for turning.
You know she was, you know she
ruled through certainty and it
was using that word again very
beguiling for many people and so
many of the you know atrocities
, damage, wounding in the world
has been driven by those who are
absolutely certain in their
beliefs.
I'm not, I realize again, I'll
sort of, depending on your
background, you might see maggie
thatcher as a, as a, you know,
a, hero figure.
Um, for me, um, I see that there
was quite a lot of challenge in
her leadership and one of the
things that kind of shows up
with certainty is that it's very
difficult to change course when
we're very certain.
You know the sort of idea of,
like we dig in our heels, it's.
We are committed to our
certainty to such a degree that
acknowledging, allowing,
admitting that there might be
another way, can feel almost
impossible for us when we are so
stuck in that place.
And it can lead to one of my
favorite phrases, which is the
sunk cost fallacy, and and if
that's a phrase you're familiar
with and you'll, I suspect, will
appreciate it as much as I do,
um, it's this concept that we've
invested so much in something,
um, you know money, emotion,
time, whatever that investment
might be that it becomes almost
impossible to change our minds.
Um, you see it often in
businesses where, um I don't
know so say, there's been a
massive investment in a
particular IT system and even
though the system doesn't work
and will never work, the
organization has invested so
much so far the sunk cost
fallacy that they just continue
until it.
You know, often another leader
will come in and go.
What is going on here?
This is crazy gets rid of the
system.
I've seen that happen.
Um, and you know, we see it a
lot in smaller businesses as
well.
You know, maybe we've um, uh
invested um a lot in a
particular kind of way of doing
business and and set up systems
and um, you know, uh, working
with, you know, different
providers in order to enable us
us to run the business in that
particular way.
And even though we can see it's
not working, we've invested so
much time, money, emotion in
that approach that we carry on.
It happens in relationships too
.
We carry on.
It happens in relationships too
.
So, you know, uncertainty means
that we're able to listen more
deeply to ourselves and others,
and if you get the everyday
compassion emails depending on
when you joined the flow of
emails, you might have seen one
of them, which is about the
distinction between indecision
and being in space decision.
So for me, sometimes this sense
of like being undecided or
being in a state of indecision
actually means that I'm in the
process of making my decision.
I just haven't got there yet
and that's okay.
So there can be a sort of rush
and a pressure to be certain and
obviously sometimes we have to
make choices even when we're not
certain.
So learning how to trust our
intuition, our deep inner voice,
our inner wisdom, becomes
really vital so we're able to
work with not only the facts and
the data and the experiences
that we've had that give us
those sort of data points, but
we're also able to listen deeply
to what our intuition tells us
and when.
We can balance those things
together.
Equally, it can make it much
easier for us to make choices
even when we're not completely
100 certain.
And if we're someone who, for
whom, making decisions feels
challenging because of past
experiences, maybe we're holding
certain beliefs about ourselves
that balance, learning how to
intuit and also be with all the
data can become really, really
useful.
It's something I've worked with
a number of clients on in order
to support them with how to
make decisions in their lives.
And one of the things here as
well about this importance of
uncertainty is it enables us to
remember that we can always
change our mind and as a parent,
that felt like such a powerful
lesson for our son to learn that
he was able to make choices and
then change his mind about them
.
And I think often we kind of
call that being woolly, or I've
got the phrase shilly-shally.
I'm not really sure what that
phrase actually means, but um,
shilly-shallying about, um, you
know, not being clear, not
committing, not sticking to your
guns, you know all of that sort
of thing.
And actually that kind of rigid
thinking is, I suspect you know
we can attribute a lot of not
necessarily positive outcomes to
that kind of thinking and
obviously what we don't want to
be doing is, you know, sort of
changing our mind every second,
because that equally keeps us in
a stuck place.
But to be able to move, to flow
like a river flows.
Now if you, you know when a
river is traveling from the
source to the sea, it's not
following a dead straight line,
it's working with the geography
that it's moving through, it's
changing direction, it's
meandering, it's navigating its
way in the best way possible,
and we always talk about water
will find a way.
You know it's not
shilly-shallying about and being
uncertain.
It's doing what it does
naturally, and I think one of
the things that makes us
uniquely, sublimely human is our
ability to change our mind, and
, in fact, one of the most
powerful leadership styles I
ever saw were the people who
were able to say stop.
It's interesting.
I wonder why my mind is
returning again and again to
this kind of corporate world.
It feels like there's a
correlation here.
If that's something that speaks
to you, please share a
reflection.
Actually, you can always just
tap to send a comment in the top
of the show notes and I'd love
to hear if this is resonating
for you in a kind of work
context.
But in fact, whatever your
reflections are, I'd love to
hear them.
So do tap on that share your
comments with me button.
So you know one of these, this
sort of powerful leadership
style of you know the people who
are able to say stop.
You know going back to that
idea of the.
You know investing huge amounts
of money in the IT system and
then being and then just
carrying on, even though
everybody knows it's not going
to work.
You know this ability to say
stop is a powerful leadership
skill, because it's not about
being mercurial and indecisive,
you know, uh, just changing your
mind on a whim.
But they're able to to exercise
this power because they've
recognized their sense of
uncertainty was valid and
something needed to change.
Um.
So a couple more thoughts,
reflections on this.
I think also, uncertainty is the
liminal space.
You know, uncertainty is this,
the place between what was and
what will be.
And in the liminal space we're
working in the gray.
I often say with my coaching
clients that that's what we're
doing.
We're not looking for fixed,
you know, answers, outcomes,
measurable statistics.
We're working in the gray
because actually that's where
the richness is, this
willingness to be uncertain in a
world that often drives us
toward certainty, like almost as
though that's the only outcome
we could ever want.
Um, and, and so I feel that
there's something really, um,
really significant about growth
here.
Um, in terms of, uh, the
willingness to be uncertain is
actually the willingness to grow
.
And in fact, actually there's a
quote from mark manson, who's
the author of the book the
subtle art of not giving a beep,
beep, beep.
Um, I haven't actually read it.
We have a copy on our bookshelf
.
I've never read it.
If you've read it, I'd be
curious to know if you think
it's worth reading.
And but one of the things that
he says is certainty is the
enemy of growth.
So, um, you know, we, we don't
really as humans, we don't
really as humans, we don't
actually expand into our full
potential when everything is
rigid and fixed around us.
We're talking about changes in
our professional life or in our
family life, or our
relationships, our society, our
politics, our climate.
Really, what we need are the
people who are able to work in
the gray, to be uncertain, in
order to expand their creative
thinking and to seek new and
maybe surprising opportunities,
outcomes, actions.
There's, um, there's a lovely
uh sort of aspect to this as
well.
There's a story about the um
butterfly which I now can't
remember, so I'm not going to
tell the story.
That's nice, isn't it?
You'll have to look it up, um,
but there's a.
You know, there's a story that I
partially recall about a
butterfly, and it is so
important with butterflies that
we don't interrupt their phase
of transformation.
You know, when they're going
from the caterpillar into the um
chrysalis I nearly forgot what
it's called into the chrysalis
and then from the chrysalis into
emerging as the butterfly.
You know, if you open up a
chrysalis before the butterfly
is ready to emerge.
It's soup, I mean, it's just
soup.
Where is the butterfly?
Where's the essence of life?
Oh, that's a delicious question
in itself.
But you know that
transformation has to occur
within the chrysalis.
And then you know, nature does
her magic and this butterfly
emerges.
But also, as the butterfly is
emerging, it's really important
that no kind person comes along
and just opens up the chrysalis
a little bit more for the
butterfly to emerge more quickly
, more certainly, because, um,
the butterfly will die.
It has to go through all of
those phases.
And one of my clients was a
teacher for many years and talks
about the wobble zone of
learning.
This space between a I don't
know.
I do know In between those two
places is the space of.
I am beginning to know, I am
learning what this thing is.
And in some schools I've heard
it's called the wobble zone, and
I think that's a beautiful
example of the liminal space.
And you know, when we're in the
learning experience, we're not
certain.
We can't possibly be certain
because we're learning.
And that's the point of
learning is that we're uncertain
and so we're learning about
this thing.
If we never allow ourselves to
be uncertain, then we never
allow ourselves to learn
something new, no-transcript.
You know to be willing to break
out of the constraints of our
certainty I'm literally
stretching my arms out either
side of me.
You know, willing to reach into
, doing something new, and I
mentioned that I'm going to yoga
.
So much of that.
You know learning something.
A practice like yoga is about
reaching into something new.
You know, extending a posture
in some way, or you know,
holding a posture, um, allowing
ourselves to be in that
uncertain space of I've not done
this before.
How would this be?
That's curiosity.
You know, one of the most
powerful tools that we have for
creativity and, um, yeah, you
know solving, solving the
challenges that we face as
humans.
Um, there was another, another
sort of point.
God, I feel like I'm like just
like boom, boom, boom, this,
this is the challenge.
When I've I've written notes, I
have like, yes, anyway, you're
experiencing it, with just lots
of ideas around this and really
what I'm doing, I I hope, is
kind of throwing this all into a
mix and then just seeing well,
where, where does that take your
thoughts?
I'd really love to hear from
you on this, about how
uncertainty feels.
I mean, uncertainty feels
uncertain.
It's challenging, isn't it at
times, and that's okay, I think.
Another observation I was
thinking is I've had a number of
people have been talking about
uh, chat GPT recently and in
fact one of my clients today, um
mentioned uh about it and was
saying you know or not sure, um,
you know they, they weren't so
sure what they'd thought about
it before they tried using it
and then actually they'd found
it quite interesting and it's
like oh gosh, is that a?
Is that a revelation?
That's going to shock people,
um, but you know it's a tool.
I see it as a tool, use it in a
very discerning way and I think
discernment is a really
important part of this whole
experience of uncertainty and
certainty.
In between the two of those is
discernment, um, but a tool like
chat, gpt or any kind of ai or
any sort of computer system, is
that they are certain, um, and
they'll often give us kind of
what it is that we want to know
or sort of fixed responses to
things.
Now, I'm really aware that I
could get challenged on this and
I'm very happy to be challenged
and very happy to be wrong.
I don't mind being uncertain,
very happy to be wrong, I don't
mind being uncertain.
But my experience is that often
if we we use a tool, a kind of
ai type tool, um, often it is
very certain and actually really
what we need in our life, in
our interactions um is lack of
certainty, because we need to
have this expansiveness as a
massive um airplane going
overhead.
I'm not sure if you can hear
that we need to have this
experience of sort of being
uncertain, being in the wobble
zone, being in the liminal space
, in the gray, in order to be
able to feel our way into.
Well, what are all of the other
possible ways of looking at
this thing, rather than just the
one?
And I think that is something
that, as humans, we are so
skilled at doing, if we allow
ourselves to be open enough to
being uncertain, and I suppose a
kind of the last sort of
reflection really is that as
humans, we also this is the
paradox of humanity really uh,
at play once more is that we all
seek certainty as a means of
control, a means of making sense
in our world, a means of
keeping ourselves safe, but the
only certainty we have is that
things will change and
fundamentally that means
uncertainty.
That means uncertainty and now
I'm sort of right the way back
to being really aware of the
macro conditions that are
surrounding us all right now and
the deep sense of uncertainty.
I mean I talked about the trans
community and and so many
communities around us, um, are
experiencing deep uncertainty
and I, you know I don't really
want to to sort of name them all
, but we know, we know where
there is uncertainty in the
world right now, and maybe
there's uncertainty in our own
lives right now, right now.
So learning how we can be with
that, I think, is also a really
powerful part of this process,
and maybe part of learning how
to be with it, is being able to
just step back a little bit from
our need for certainty, maybe
even understanding where that
need might be born from, and
then exploring well, how can I
hold space for myself in a state
of uncertainty too?
And, as is so often the case
when something like this sort of
lands with me, I then see
someone that I love and trust
also having similar thoughts.
This is the zeitgeist of
thinking, I think, and my lovely
friend, susan McCully, who has
joined me on the podcast several
times as a, as a not really as
a guest, but as a as a
co-creator um she shared um on
her email list, which I highly
recommend joining if you don't
already follow Susan.
She's a wonderful writer.
Um, she shared a Pema Chodron
quote and I believe it's from
the book Comfortable with
Uncertainty, but I haven't
double checked that and the
quote goes sticking with
uncertainty is how we learn to
relax in the midst of chaos, how
we learn to be cool when the
ground beneath us suddenly
disappears.
We can bring ourselves back to
the spiritual path countless
times every day, simply by
exercising our willingness to
rest in the uncertainty of the
present moment over and over
again.
So there we go.
I'm now really late getting
changed for yoga, so I do have
to go and I am sending you so
much love.
And also just one last thing, if
you haven't and you would like
to, if you haven't yet signed up
or taken a look at the latest
journaling and group coaching
course that I'm running.
It's a four week live course,
online, small group of people.
It's all about how do we create
change with compassion, looking
at the science and practice of
self-compassion, but really with
a very much a sort of an eye to
creating change.
It begins on friday, the 23rd
of may, and it's a lunchtime
session hour and 15 minutes for
four weeks every friday
lunchtime from the 23rd of may
and there are four spaces
remaining if you want to join.
Well, four spaces at the time
of recording.
So if you want to join us, I
would be so delighted, and if
you want to have a chat with me
to see is it the right course
for you.
We use flow journaling.
We use some group discussion,
we use some coaching, group
coaching skills.
It's a really, really beautiful
environment.
I'm currently running one right
now on hopes and dreams and
honestly, I'm absolutely loving
it.
Fell in love with the group
within seconds of everybody
joining together and it would be
gorgeous if you wanted to join
us there, and it would be
gorgeous if you wanted to join
us there.
So I'll put a link to that in
the show notes and you can
always find it on my website.
To hennyflynncouk and I am
sending you a hug and a wave.
Thank you, thank you.