Who Are We Being in Our Doing? - Joyous Effort with Janet Ettele (S18E6)

I recorded this conversation in March and then I lost it. My computer decided to give up the ghost. I had to get a new machine and in that transition this beautiful conversation just disappeared and I have made so many attempts to try and recover it. And I've had some beautiful messages from my wonderful guest and from the agency that connected us together. And still, I just couldn't find it.

And then literally, just this moment, I had the flash of inspiration and I knew exactly how to get to it. And so I am absolutely delighted to introduce you to Janet Atell. And, there's quite a long introduction before she joins me on the call, but hopefully it helps to position the thoughtfulness that went into actually being in conversation with her. It's a really, really wonderful conversation and I am delighted to be sharing it with you at last. Welcome to the Henny Flynn podcast, the space for deepening self awareness with profound self compassion.

I'm Henny. I write, coach and speak about how exploring our inner world can transform how we experience our outer world. All founded on a bedrock of self love. Settle in and listen and see where the episode takes you. I've been really consciously exploring how it is that I want to take this podcast, way of communicating further, deeper, wider, and part of that has been really being incredibly discerning about who I invite onto the show.

And one of the things about having a podcast that's slowly gaining more notice and more attention is that I get approached a lot by people who want to come and speak with us here. And as in all things I really feel into how does that energy work? And that's not to say that the people that I get approached by or for aren't all absolutely wonderful human beings, but I'm very, very mindful of how to shape and hold this space in a way that feels really deeply truly aligned with what I sense to feel right. Whatever right means. And and my guest today came through the ether into my inbox and there was something about what was written about her work that just made me settle something deeply settled inside.

And I thought oh gosh. Yes I think we would love to speak with her. Her name is Janet Attell. I need to double check that's how you say her surname. She's going to be with me in a few minutes so I'll double check that.

She is a musician and an author. And a student of Buddhism. She has recently written a book which I suspect we will come to at some point in our conversation. And the it's got the most delicious title. How joyous effort works.

This is one of the the kind of there are these principles within Buddhism of sort of how we approach the different aspects of our lives and Janet can talk talk to us a lot more about this but this concept of joyous effort I think really really speaks to the deep practices of compassion, self compassion as well. And ways in which we can integrate teachings from wise guides from multiple faiths, multiple sources into our daily life. And one of the aspects of this book that you might find really interesting is that the forward was actually written by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. And you know that clearly says something about what Janet is sharing here. And her stance which I think also resonates really deeply with some of the themes that we've been exploring in the podcast actually in this season.

And that I suspect will resonate very deeply with anybody whether or not you've listened to any previous episodes. Just being aware of what's going on in the world is that struggles and challenges are inescapable. But Janet's sort of the line, the bio line from the information that was shared with me is Janet's joyful approach to life, her genuine empathy and her ability to connect deeply with people make her an unforgettable guest. So I am very much looking forward to welcoming her here and I'll be back in a moment with Janet. So, I am delighted that Janet is now here with me and just to welcome you Janet and say I already know, I mean I can feel my whole system is just going into this lovely warm soft space and it just feels like we're going to have a beautiful conversation.

Thank you so much. I feel really honored to be here with you Henny. Thank you.

You know what I was just saying before we press record about really feeling into the connection that I sense there will be between, you know, a guest that I bring into this space and all of the beautiful people who listen and really trusting that energy. As I've been sitting with this conversation and really feeling into what is it, what's kind of drawing my attention, what's been so interesting, it's literally been one question.

And

the question is, how are you? Through the depths of that question, like how are you Janet?

No one has ever asked me that question with such depth. It makes me really, how did how do I think even more deeply? I mean, I can say I'm I'm well, you know, on the surface, thankfully. I'm at peace. I feel really a lot of gratitude in my life.

And just, yeah, I can all, it's not complicated. I can honestly say I'm well, thank you.

That's so beautiful. And when I was reflecting on, well that's unusual for me to only have one question. Then I was thinking, well maybe that really links into the work that you offer into the world. And this sense of really connecting with ourselves about like, you know, how am I? What is it that I need?

What is it that others may benefit from me. I'm really sort of mindful around kind of how we talk about that, giving to others and the practice of service to others. And it kind of, yes, it's even as I'm saying this with you and sort of vocalising what was in my head, sort of feels like that starts to become the container for our conversation about, you know, what it is that you offer into the world that enables people to connect with that aspect of themselves.

Okay. So the, you know, work I've done, you know, that you might, that we might be talking about today in part, but certainly doesn't have to be limited to it is the series of books that I've written that are based on a specific Buddhist teaching taught by an eighth century Buddhist monk and scholar named Master Shantideva. And his teaching is on what's in English is called the guide to the bodhisattva's way of life. And for anyone who's not familiar with what a bodhisattva is, if you're too young to remember Steely Dan's song, Bodhi Sattva. A Bodhi Sattva is someone who is so dedicated on his spiritual path and and specifically in this context, Buddhist path, but I don't think that the universe is really chopped up into, you know, religion so much.

Anyway, the the the intention for that practitioner is to achieve enlightenment for the benefit of all, all sentient beings, little insects up to the, you know, humans to animals, everything. And so it's quite an involved teaching, which is, contains what we call the six perfections of generosity, moral and ethical discipline, patience, joyous effort, concentration, and wisdom. And so what I've done is I've written a series of books. The one I've just finished is the fourth, that is taking these teachings that are, you know, he was eighth century, so it's a long time ago, you know, so thirteen hundred years. More than that.

I can't do the math that fast. Anyway, he's take taking these teachings, and they are still so relevant because human nature is so consistent over time. They're still so relevant. But what I've been trying to do is put them in a context of contemporary fiction. And because so many of the Buddhist teachings that I've encountered can be really quite scholarly and academic and hard to really connect with, I I've put them into contemporary fiction and creating contemporary characters that are living in a world like our own.

And I my hope is, my intention is that by bringing these teachings into a story with characters that are so relatable, that these teachings can hopefully connect more at a heart level, not just at a cerebral level, of course, but to really connect at the heart level as we kind of follow the stories, as the young man who's the main character goes on this journey, which is sort of like when the student is ready, the master appears for him. And, you know, that's the nutshell version of what I've been doing. I do want to say that even though it is a series and this is the fourth book, that my publisher had asked that I write them in such a way that they could be read in any order. So someone might be more drawn to one book over another, which was a little tricky to do. But what I have done is weave the backstory of the previous books into each successive book.

I'd

love to know. It sounds really beautiful actually, before I dive into that next, where that's taken my head. There's something in what you said about the original teaching is so relatable and that humans are so consistent. I think that was the word that you used. Thought that was an impeccable use of a word.

And it's one of those things, isn't it, that we've all come across quotes from Confucius or Cicero or any of the stoics or Aristotle or whoever it might be and gone, gosh, it's so now, how come we haven't learned it yet? Or how are we still needing people to tell us the same thing again and again. I think this, what I love is, what you're saying about sort of bringing it into a relatable space so that it's not just the head going, Oh yes, I know that. It's actually the heart feeling into, Oh yes, I feel that. What I'd really love to do is just sort of take us a little bit further back in time for a moment and just to to ask for some of your story actually like how you came to have this deep connection with these Buddhist teachings and what it was that brought you to this place where you could see actually this is something that I can offer into the world.

Wow, it's funny because the older one gets the longer that story can be. I've been around for quite a while. I would say, I like to think of some of the beginnings being when I was young, like really young. I was maybe 15, 14 years old when my parents divorced. And some of my backstory is actually woven into the character of Troy, even though he's a young man.

When they divorced, was sent away to a boarding school in New Hampshire, which was a Quaker school. And it was an interesting time in in life in general, but one of the takeaways from that well, the Quaker has Quakers have that tradition of silence what they call meeting for worship, where they're they don't have ministers or priests, but that every person has the divine within. And it's through sitting in this silence that you can connect with that divine. And I was quite a mess at that time in my life, quite a mess. My sister had my parents had divorced, my sister had gone to Israel to work on a border kibbutz, and my there was, you know, war going on and my brother was sent to the Vietnam War.

So my whole family just like scattered. There I was on this was like it was in the seventies and communes were a thing then. So this was an experimental school, Quaker commune. I'm milking cows and shoveling manure and doing all of this. I'm like, what am I doing here?

But I did get the silence from that school. And also, know you're really interested in journaling. That was something that was encouraged. And for me, those journals at that time really saved me. And I know you have talked about your journal as being sort of someone you talk to.

For me, it was like my oracle. You know, I would go into it and I think it's a similar

Yeah, very similar.

You pulled something out. I wasn't always as wise as I should have been, but, you know, it did help me through. And so years went by, many years went by, and I've always been someone who was had spiritual leanings, always a seeker sort of person. And back in 02/2008, I had been reading some books that really deepened my interest in learning more about the Buddhist view. And every book I read, it was one book after another, said, if you really want to teach take these teachings seriously into your life, meaningfully into your life, you need to find a teacher.

And I live in a somewhere I between suburban and rural. It's not the classic suburbs, but it's not really rural either. And I thought, well, I am not seeing any Buddhist temples around here, and I don't know anybody who is Buddhist. So I assumed I'm an hour and a half from New York City and three hours from Boston. I assumed I'd have to go to one of these places to find a teacher.

I went online and found that five miles from my house, just five miles from the little back roads, is the Tibetan Buddhist Center for Universal Peace.

So, you can't see me right now, but my hands are clasped over my heart, and there is a huge smile on my face, but Janik, oh my goodness me. Utterly perfect.

It was amazing, and here I met Tibetan Buddhist monks who were not only really good teachers, but just by observing them, their presence, their sense of joy, their their peace, and experiencing their deep kindness and their deep wisdom, I knew I had encountered something that had huge potential to bring really added depth and value and peace to my own life. And so that was 02/2008.

I'm curious about, at that time, so I often sort of see like times of change happening around us or sort of in our lives as being portals, you know, times when something opens up. So grief or life stage change like menopause or changes in the work environment or things like that. Often that seems to me, the experience that I have in observing others to be moments where it's what the Celts used to call a thin place. They said there were these thin places geographically where the distance between the self and the gods was thinner. And I see sort of times of change as being like thin places where the space between us and the outside world feels thinner, but also the space between us and our inner world feels thinner.

Fascinating, I've never heard that, but that's something I really want to think about.

And I just wonder whether was there, I mean, without sort of needing to share it specifically, but was there something happening around you or with you that It felt like a thin

probably had been a number of years that felt like a thin place, you know, between my own divorce, raising my two sons from the time they were six and four, on my own. Well, not on my own because their father is a wonderful dad and stayed present in their lives. So I don't want to say I was all alone in that, but you know what I mean. I didn't have somebody there in the house with me and also the need to work and worry about how was I gonna take care of all of us. Anyway, so there was that.

By 02/2007, my youngest son had graduated high school. And so that was a transition, and I had seen it coming when my older son went off to college in 'five. And so, it was very much a thin place. And a lot of other things, like you said, there's so much you could go into, but yeah, lots of thinning.

Lots of thinning. Yeah. I think it's I just had a sense of it in my body when you said about that kind of like, Oh, and I was just curious. And then in my body, it was like, Oh, it something feels was thinning.

Body's very intuitive.

And so you've found this place of teaching and learning and wisdom.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's been wonderful because it it is it is vast. You know, I it reminded me a little bit.

So when I went to college, I went to study music. I'm also teach piano as I'm a musician. And I remember that was the first time in my life in one of the music theory classes, my freshman semester, where I the teacher was talking about music theory, I thought, oh my god. The more you know, the more you know you don't know. That was my first experience of that.

And now it's the same thing in this path. The more I know, the more I know I don't know. And there's so much, it's so vast.

It's so interesting, isn't it? Because I can hear that on two levels. I can hear that on a kind of mindset that could go, Oh my goodness me, there's so much I don't know. And it feels so daunting and kind of overwhelming to even begin to know. And then the mindset, which I suspect is yours, Janet, which is the, Oh my goodness me, there's so much I don't know.

And look, look how much there can be. And I think that really is the sort of the sensation, cause it feels more less about the mind, but the whole body, the sensation of opening up to potential and like, gosh, and curiosity and everything that that can bring.

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's like so fun to learn something that you're interested in, isn't it? I mean, I might not be that excited about studying tax law,

for someone else that would be really

Really yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, so and valuable, but for me this has just been, like you said, my curiosity and I think there's some, I don't know, from, like I said, from a very small age, when I look back on when I was even really small, I had a lot of curiosity in this area.

A memory of own has arisen within me as I hear you say that. Which is I remember I was probably about seven or eight years old, I think. And I remember talking to my mum and we'd had the local vicar had come into the school and been talking to us. I remember having quite a serious conversation with my mom and saying, I think God is within and without us. And I remember then sort of laughing and saying, Oh, maybe that means that God exists without us as well.

It's like outside of us and going into like, Oh, there's two words. And my mom just laughing and joining in. But that sense, really like visceral sense as a child that, yeah, all of the meanings of that word just really came up as you were just speaking then.

That is beautiful. Yeah.

So as you sort of deepened your learning and your kind of inner exploration. Then these teachings, these particular teachings that you're referring to in the books that you've written, they really resonated in some way or?

Well, there's more to the story

than They I would

do resonate, yes. But I wasn't aware of them quite yet. I was so in 2010, so this is two years into my introduction to this center. I was attending a class there and during one of the breaks, I got to talking to this other student, a man who I had not met before. He was visiting from New Jersey.

And we were just sharing how, basically what we were just talking about, how valuable these teachings are even two thousand five hundred years post Buddha, and how we could sense this need in our culture that these teachings would be so helpful. If only we when we found that we shared this wish that we could bring these teachings in a more accessible way into the Western culture without saying, oh, you have to go to a Buddhist temple, you have to become Buddhist, and none of that because this is not about religion. Mhmm. You know, this and that's something I feel very strongly about. This is about bringing what I feel are one of the world's most profound teachings on compassion and wisdom into ordinary language.

And he then shared with me that his career had been in publishing, was still in publishing, but he had a side gig. Like he had started his own little small publishing company that was dedicated to books on Buddhist teachings. Then he told me that he had this idea for years that he had been incubating, maybe a few years, I should say, that of a series based on this particular teaching. So it was actually he who introduced me to Shantideva's teaching on the guide to the bodhisattva's way of life. And then it'll and then he said and I hadn't any you know, I had written newsletters.

I had journaled. I had no real I had studied poetry when I was in college, but I really had minimal experience as a writer, like really minimal. And he invited me to, he used his words to take a stab at writing the first 10 pages of what turned out to be the first book. And he said, really, his only restriction was that I make sure there's a teacher character and a student character. So I did it and it just all kind of grew from there.

Oh, Janet, it's so gorgeous. Because, I mean, it feels like flow to me as I listen to you. I mean, that feels like the most profound state of flow where there you both are, you happen to be in that space, you happen to be having this conversation, he happens to have his history, he happens to see something in you that maybe you didn't quite recognize in yourself. And he happens to have the faith and trust in himself to be able to say to you, have a go, see how it is. It's really gorgeous.

That's really interesting to hear it back from you in that light because what you know when you're so day to day involved in something and that's going back to 2010, so that's fifteen years ago almost. Right? And and it's been such a focus that now this book, How Joyous Effort Works, is the fourth book. And I have to laugh and say, hasn't always felt so joyous. You know, there have been a lot of challenges and bumps and periods of time where you're like, what am I doing?

You know, just all of that that we all can go through. But I knew, you know, one of the things in How Joyous Effort Works is, I'm not, that's my book title, but in The Perfection of Joyous Effort, is one of the things, is that when you begin something, complete it. And if you don't think you can complete something, you shouldn't begin it. So I've, with all these, there were some stops and starts along the way with this particular book, and I was determined to make sure that I finished it and was able to get the forward written by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and also to receive some really wonderful endorsements from Jane Goodall and Robert Thurman, which just was, again, those like you talk about flow, I just am so grateful for that.

And it feels, I mean, I'm very aware of the synchronicity of talking with you about joyous effort and this sense of flow of being here too. Because for me, from a very sort of secular kind of perspective, That's how it feels. Joyous effort feels like part of my concept of flow. I'm also I'm really really interested in this thing about the part of joyous effort is to complete something. And how does that equate?

This is a little bit of a kind of segue, but I'm just curious about it. How does that equate to if someone does find themselves in a situation where something that they have begun? Maybe I'm kind of answering my own question in my head actually as I'm asking this. For example, someone started along a path and then they realise that that path actually is taking them in a completely different direction from what they had originally intended. Or that while they're on that path, they come to a thin place and something else opens up.

How does sort of joyous effort and that concept of completing what you've begun, how does that weave into that?

I think as I hear your question, I don't hear that as not completing it. I hear it as sort of taking another route.

Yes, yes, exactly.

And I should also explain that that perfection of joyous effort is for the benefit of others. Right? This is one thing. And that when we understand, and this is also keep in mind, this is for the Bodhisattva. We're just maybe you're a bodhisattva, but most of us are just ordinary humans, and we need to sort of modify.

That's an aspiration. And they can still employ a lot of what is presented in there. But we I think we also have to understand each of our own capacity. Everybody's capacity is different. And the thing behind joyous effort too is that when we understand the value of something, this is why it's called that, when we in this case, it's these teachings and being on this path.

But when we understand the value of something, we're excited to put the effort into it. You know, so that's a joy. That's a joyous effort. And they another thing that it presents is sometimes you have to take a rest. Sometimes you need to just sort of, we'll say chill for a little bit and let things settle a little bit.

Then you can begin again, having regrouped, reenergized.

It feels like the other word that I've got, thank you for that. And I think that really, really resonates and where it takes me is a sense of alignment. So really acting in alignment with what's needed in the moment. So to your point about rest, one

of

the things I'll often say to clients is that rest is not passive. Rest is an active choice. It takes effort, it takes maybe joyous effort actually to actively choose to mindfully and kindfully rest and pause and breathe. Rather than to sort of be stuck in the story loop of I must always be striving and pushing forward and the tension and the resistance against rest and all of those things. So it really, what you've just said really resonates for me.

It makes me, what you just said makes me think of that distinction that was sometimes really helpful to bring to mind is, you know, it's who we are being in our doing, you know, so we really want to be mindful of who we are being in any activity.

How have I never heard someone say that phrase? That's so beautiful, Janet. It's so beautiful. Who are we being in our doing? I mean, the way that you sort of threw that out there, I'm kind of guessing that like for you, that's just like, oh, that's, you know, yes, I know that deep in my bones.

But the way that you just expressed it was so beautiful. It really that's I mean, gosh, if we can remember one thing, is it that?

Thank you. And, yeah, I think I think it's one we really wanna bring to mind often, you know, but I'm glad it was so that it It really did.

I actually, because we're, you know, obviously we're on camera so we can see each other. I actually watched my skin flush as you said It was like, oof,

that's fine. I did see that.

That's really very, very powerful Janet. Because we often talk about human beings, not human doings. Or if I'm leading a mindfulness practice, there's nowhere to go, nothing to do, no one to be. And yet, what you've just said is just that's really beautifully expressed. And so yes, who are we being in our doing?

And you know when you when you reflect on what writing these books and the you know I'm I'm making an assumption here but I this sort of sinking in to the teachings and really getting inside it. How has that informed you That your way and of

has been huge. I would say it's so subtle in its minute to minute sort of experience that I don't know that I could say how in my way of being, because like I said, it's been almost fifteen years. And in order to write, you know, I worked closely with the publisher, especially in the first and second books more so, as he was a more experienced student. He had more history, having studied longer. So I would spend a lot of time trying to understand what it was that I needed to be able to present.

And I had this beautiful access to these Tibetan monks too that I could split and check and make sure that I'm presenting this accurately and they could offer me insights. And so then my job was to take what I was learning and sort of put it through some kind of internal mechanism to then turn it into part of a story. So it really did deepen my own learning. It really did. It's funny, there's, it seems like it might be a worthwhile time to present this.

There's something in the Buddhist teachings called the three stages of wisdom, where the first stage is listening to a teaching or perhaps reading, one. Right? The second stage is, reflection where you, you know, it's advised never just to accept something as fact without reflecting on it and testing it out, making sure it really adds up, and getting familiar with it through that sort of reflection. And then the third stage is meditation. Once we get to that state of having done this reflection and have some sort of understanding that we can really get, we meditate holding our attention on that.

And by doing this, meditation, it's a practice. Right? Meditation is a method of familiarizing your mind to something.

The

more we do this, the more familiar whatever it was we've been trying to learn becomes so that we are less likely to be leaving these teachings on the cushion, as they say, and be able to bring them actively into our life. So that when you engage, you know, that difficult situation or encounter or whatever, you have this practice, you have that understanding to know how to tap into that and manage it skillfully.

That feels like that sort of level of embodied knowledge where we've really It's so interesting. I'm so fascinated with Buddhist teachings. But it's something that I've always kind of danced around the edges of slightly. As I move forward, I find myself more and more curious. But no nothing, obviously, because none of us know anything about anything, do we Janet?

The Zen Buddhist mind.

The more we know, the more we know we don't know.

Yeah, But I was just gonna say that, so for me, often How it feels for me is when we take information for want of a better word, when we take in something, We begin here where I would translate that as I think I know it. I think I know that thing. And then it's almost like it sort of percolates down the body. And then it's like, I feel I know it. And then it comes down to my belly and I go, oh, I know I know it.

And it's my belly. That's the home of my wisdom or hara, the head heart hara concept. And it's my horror that writes, my wisdom that writes in my journal. That's who feel writes. I mean, think it's the divine within, divine without who writes.

The seven year old insight that you have.

Yeah, well, yes, exactly. Hadn't made that connection, but yes, Janice.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, but it's it's in so it's interesting to hear, you know, what you just said about that sort of third stage being the the point of meditation, you know, the place of meditation, that really sort of deeply, deeply sitting.

Yeah.

With something and then embodying that knowledge through that practice. Feels very physical to me.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I just want to add what that I've noticed with the Tibetans, when they talk about their mind, their hand is here on their heart. I also wanted to mention that in these stories with Troy, you know, how he starts off, and if you'd like, I can talk a little bit more about him, but just generally how he starts off on this journey. And as he keeps learning, the readers are learning with him as he's debating in his mind, well, what about this? What about that?

As he's asking questions, the reader gets to sort of be the fly on the wall and and experience this questioning as well. And then as he takes it into his meditation, the reader gets to participate in that meditation. And then as he takes it into his life and encounters a circumstance, or a situation, we get to observe how he handles it and its results. So one that's one of the things that I've been trying to do throughout all of these books is to let it be something that we can walk through with him, but more than walk through actually learn from it too.

Well, and also that speaks to the power of empathy. The reason why reading is so useful for deepening empathy anyway, but also it's such an empathetic practice that we are actually standing in someone else's shoes when we read. So that really resonates that sort of through his, I mean, it feels like the hero's journey. The fact that you've called him Troy, I keep thinking of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey and the traveler.

That's so interesting because I don't know where a lot of things just like popped and, you know, it's just like, what is his name gonna be? And Truett, you know, it's just, it's very, that's interesting.

That is interesting. Really, I feel like they're a little, for both of us, a little like, oh, I haven't really thought about that.

This is why we all need each other. This

is why we all need each other. And I think, wow, gosh, that immediately brings me to the reason why these kinds of conversations, this kind of teaching. And also that your really clear stance that this isn't about religion or faith. This is about humanity. This is about wisdom.

I don't know. Sort of how would you describe the container for this?

Well, I feel that the value of any spiritual teaching really is and its ability to be applied in to daily life. Right? And that it's a vehicle. It's not the vehicle, but it's a vehicle for someone to understand some of the the things that are presented in the Buddhist teaching, things like why it's important to understand the reality of impermanence, why attachment is a, you know, can create problems in our life. And attachment is very different from devotion.

I think that's an important distinction. Attachment is more grasping and clinging. Understanding karma, which is cause and effect. Understanding interdependence, what we were just saying, you know, nothing exists just all by itself. We exist because of all that exists.

And as I hear you, these are all such These are important things for us all to understand. And yet we come back to this thing. So intellectually, up in our heads, we can say, Oh yes, I understand. It's better for me not to cling to another person or to an idea or to a place or whatever it might be. And yet the reality of like, well, how do I not cling?

That then often is the point at which we can sort of shut down because it's like, well, that just feels so impossible. Or even recognising that we are clinging to something because we'll try and call it something else in order to avoid the recognition that we are clinging. And so I think anything that is offered into the world that helps to bring things into a more relatable back to your word from the beginning of our conversation, a more relatable space. I think is so incredibly valuable. Because just as you and I have had moments today where we've gone like, Oh, I hadn't really thought about it that way.

Or, that's really what I expect your books are opening up, you know, that's what they're offering, isn't it? It's like, hey, here's another way.

It's, when we understand that that clinging is futile and painful and causes suffering, just for ourselves, but that, you know, it's just we understand we understand it differently, but it takes some under some, how do we put it, mindfulness, understanding some meditation, some reflection and all of that to see. It was just because so the Buddha said, You see my finger pointing to the moon. Don't mistake my finger for being the moon. It's because of my finger that you can see the moon. So someone can I'm sorry, now people can't I didn't know we I can see it.

The face is happening again. Yeah. So it takes reflection. It takes spending time with these ideas and recognizing that it's not to not have love in your life or not to any of that. It's to free you.

And by being more free, your capacity to extend love and compassion is multiplied.

And it also releases so much of the energy that we take, that takes to cling, to hold us, you know, the tension that comes with that. And as we soften, then we open and more becomes available to us as well, I feel.

And I would agree with you, yes.

So Janet, talk to me a little bit about As you're feeling into our conversation today, and I don't know, for me I always feel there's a reason why our conversation has touched on the areas that it's touched on. And that will be in some way informed by the people who are listening, You know this field that we that we are in. And I wonder if there's sort of something that really is sort of resonating within you that just feels so oh, there's this aspect of this work that feels like it really needs to be shared. Or a key sort of a key teaching from the work that really feels like, oh, this, I could leave people with this, it would be

That's a really hard question. It's like, that sounds like, okay, this is the last thing you can do. Just really, first of all, I want to say I'm so grateful for having this opportunity to have such a beautiful conversation with you. You know, you really helped to make it full, really full and rich, and thank you for that. And I hope that this does help your listeners and, you know, if they're inclined that they can find my books and and maybe that will help them.

I'm I'm available. I'm online, so people, if they want to connect and have more

That's so beautiful.

Conversation, I'm you I can be reached. And I also would like to which we didn't talk about so much, but it's the importance of mindfulness.

And

my my understanding of what mindfulness means, because I know we hear that word so often, is awareness that's coupled with an accurate understanding of how things function and how things exist. And when we have that mindfulness, that means sort of, you know, I think that who are we being falls into that category. But with that, I'd like to just share a quote from Shantideva, which is sort of a metaphor. He says, where would I find enough leather to cover the entire surface of the earth, but with leather soles beneath my feet, it's as if the entire world has been covered. And that's what mindfulness does for us.

We can't make all the world accommodate everything for us, But if we have mindfulness and how we participate, how we walk through this life with mindfulness, that is like the leather soles beneath our feet.

That is beautiful on all levels.

And

is a Thich Nhat Hanh's community is in the process of opening a space in England. And I felt myself as we were talking putting this message out into the world that maybe Janet you come and share some of your experiences one day there. Feel incredibly drawn to this space. I've engaged with the creation of this space. I just have this sense that maybe in some way you will be connected with it too.

That is now I've got goosebumps. Fascinating.

And yes, and I think the other sort of message that I'm taking from you as well is this, the courage, the courage to write, The courage to trust when someone says, just write those first 10 pages. Let's see how it goes. And you know and that also feels like joyous effort to me. You know this this kind of willingness to to take that kind of risk because you said, I'm not a writer, right? That's not my experience.

And here you are, you are a writer.

Yeah, I am now. I mean, I always like you

Always were. Yeah.

And that sort of way of writing. But it's so funny when you're so in the midst of it. You you're just doing you're I mean, I'm not I was being and I was doing, but I I was just so focused on this that I didn't have that outside view that you've sort of offered back to me about any of it. And so it's really interesting for me to hear you respond with what you're saying. And so thank you for that too.

And thank you. Thank you so much, Janet. Thank you for such a There's so much warmth with you and it feels like a very safe place listening to you and being with you. And I just wanted to share that back to you.

Well, and I feel the same with you. Thank you. It has been a really wonderful, wonderful visit.

Yeah, yeah, a really wonderful visit. That's such a beautiful way of putting it. That's it, yeah. So thanks for coming to see us.

Thank you for inviting me.

And I will share. I'll share your books and how people can connect with you in notes from the show. And yeah, I really look forward to reading them myself. I'm going to dive in and meet Troy.

Oh, well if you have any inclination to tick back with me along the way as you're reading, I would be happy to bounce ideas even not on your podcast unless you wanted that but just personally absolutely.

Wonderful, wonderful, thank you. Thank you so much.

It's beautiful, wonderful, absolutely.