Speaker 1: I'm feeling deeply
grateful right now that the
guests that I have been inviting
onto the show over this last,
however many episodes have all
been so warm, so generous, so
compassionate, so wise, and my
guest today is no exception.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast, the space for deepening
self-awareness with profound
self-compassion.
I'm Henny, I write, coach and
speak about how exploring our
inner world can transform how we
experience our outer world, all
founded on a bedrock of
self-love.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you.
Pamela Windle is a women's
health coach.
She specializes in working and
supporting women working with
and supporting women
experiencing menopause and she
has an additional expertise
supporting organizations in
supporting the women who work
for them as they navigate
menopause.
My intention with this
conversation was to expand out
from this work that Pamela does
with organisations into the
wider benefit of weaving
compassion based practices
throughout organisations in the
way that they support their
people, whatever their gender,
whatever their life stage.
Support their people whatever
their gender, whatever their
life stage.
But it became really clear as
Pamela and I were talking that
actually the whole topic of
menopause and the way that we
look at this incredibly
important life stage warranted
this diving in rather than
widening out, and so that is
what we did, and my sense is
that this is a conversation that
benefits each and every one of
us to listen to.
Again, I say that regardless of
our gender, regardless of our
life stage, and at one point I
asked Pamela what is the most
important thing that she thinks
organizations need to hear or
need to focus on, and I loved
her response.
And I think, if you are someone
who works within an
organization where you have
power, clout, money, actually
listening to the way that she
talks about the work that is
needed might inspire you to do
something differently or might
help you see that the work that
you are doing is well done.
All right, my darlings, let's
go diving into the conversation.
So I'd like to officially
welcome you, even though we've
obviously just said hello
already, but, yeah, like to
officially welcome you, even
though we've obviously just said
hello already.
Speaker 2: But, um, yeah, just
to officially welcome you here,
pamela, and to say how lovely it
is to see you here thank you so
much, henny, for inviting me,
and it's so good to be sat
opposite you right now and just
seeing your absolutely wonderful
smile.
Speaker 1: Yes, in fact, maybe.
Well, we just said, didn't we,
that this is uh audio only, but
maybe maybe we should be
recording this in video as well,
because your smile is also just
such a part of your presence
and and I think that's one of
the, this energy that you have
is one of the reasons why I
wanted to talk with you and and
invite you here.
Um, and I know sort of, in
essence, some of the themes that
I sort of suggested that we
talk about are things like the
work that you do around
menopause in the workplace.
But I think there's something,
there's something I'm really
curious about, which is the, the
role of compassion within that
work and and the kind of wider
impact that the work that people
like you are doing in the kind
of corporate space, the wider
impact that that can have on an
organization.
Um, yeah, so I'm kind of I'm
very curious to see how this
goes.
I think, also, I'd like to just
sort of share with everybody
that you and I met.
Like we were just saying that
we met uh, we can't quite
remember when, can we, pamela?
But anyway, it was like some
years ago around about that time
of lockdown or not lockdown.
We didn't nobody really knew
quite what was going on, and we
did some work with liminal, as
it is now known, and so we were
really lucky to to share a.
So we were really lucky to
share a.
Well, we were being filmed,
weren't we to talk about
menopause and that support?
And so I'd love to kind of dive
in and just get a sort of sense
of the work that you do, if you
can just paint us a bit of a
picture of the work you do and
how you came to do it.
Actually, I'd love to start
there, if that's OK.
Speaker 2: How I came to do it.
Actually, I'd love to start
there, if that's okay.
How I came to do it, yeah, okay
.
So I mean, it feels like I've
been doing this work for a while
now and I've met some
incredible women, like Rebecca
from Liminal and yourself and
some other women which are in
this community anyway, and other
women that I've met online and
in person, and it is growing,
isn't it, this kind of menopause
conversation around women's
health, not just in the
workplace, but also for
individuals.
Um, and it kind of started for
me back in 2015.
Um, so I'm currently I'm 58 and
I am perimenopausal still.
They're really, really unusual
and you know, it's been a
learning journey, as it is for
every woman, but more for me,
because the narrative is that,
being a black woman, I should
enter menopause early and it
should be a difficult journey.
So I'm not living that, I'm not
embodying that at all.
Um, but what did happen for me
in 2012 is that I came down with
a virus an ordinary virus, you
know and you expect to get
better.
Well, I didn't get better and I
didn't get better for another
six years.
I spent probably a year to two
years trying to work out what
was wrong with me.
I lost my job as a consequence
of being off sick and I remember
um sitting in with my HR
manager when I've been off work
sick several times and accrued
you know the the sickness?
Speaker 1: yeah, the maximum
statutory sickness period.
I used to be an hr director
very familiar with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, ben,
and it was a male dot, a male um
hr manager, and I was I was 46
at the time and he said um, oh,
you know, we have a.
We have a menopause policy.
I was thinking you are so rude,
how dare you assume that I'm in
menopause?
And this is what this is the
menopause.
I'm like I'm still having a
menstrual cycle.
You know, I felt great, apart
from this fatigue, um, but I
just thought how rude and how
just out of you know his role to
actually bring that to me and I
actually write about that in
blogs.
You know, it's just that you,
you can't do that just because
role as a manager, it's not your
place.
And this is where the whole the
workplace comes in.
And education around women,
because it needs to be a
collaboration of everybody, not
just, you know, a manager or
woman that's in the workplace.
It needs to be everybody
raising awareness about that
space so that you can have an
honest and open conversation
about it, rather than someone
just assuming just because
you're a certain age, therefore
you're in menopause it's really
interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1: On the one hand, it's
kind of well great that there
was a menopause policy and great
that you're aware of menopause
being a life stage that can
affect a woman's experience at
work.
And it's so challenging when
it's just kind of like almost
like sort of whomped on the
table between you, you know, and
and with no, no concept of the
sensitivity that's actually
around it for the woman as well.
And I think it's so interesting
that your response was how dare
you, how very dare you?
Because actually for so many of
us as women, like entering into
perimenopause, a lot of us are
in the denial or doesn't doesn't
even cross our mind that that
might be what we're experiencing
.
So I think there's there's like
there's so much uh, lived
experience in what you've just
shared, just in that little
story really yeah, but I didn't
know about perimenopause at that
point.
Speaker 2: I knew of the
menopause, but perimenopause
wasn't something that was talked
about.
So he assumed that I was in
menopause, which is the full
throes of it.
He wasn't assuming that I was a
woman that was perhaps in
perimenopause.
Maybe he hadn't even heard of
paramenopause.
Yeah, of course it's 2012, yeah
, and anyway.
So, being sick and having all
this time off, I eventually lost
my job as consequent, and my GP
was saying oh, you know, we
think you've got chronic fatigue
syndrome.
And I was like no way have I
thought that I'm mispositive,
I'm healthy, I thought I'm fit
because I equaled fitness to
health and it really isn't.
And you know, I've got a really
positive mindset.
I don't, you know, I haven't
got that.
This is something that only
people that are negative get,
you know, um, and whilst it was
chronic fatigue and a syndrome
and the word syndrome is means
that we don't know why you've
got this chronic fatigue but
they do put you into like a
category.
Well, you have this syndrome,
we've, we've done all our tests
available to us and we don't
know why you're sick.
Yes, there could be some
psychological aspects to it, but
you're going to be a reason it
has to be something, that, one,
I can get better and two, why I
just can't take this information
you're giving me, that this is
just how things are.
No, so my curiosity led me to
then 2000, let me think 2015,
where things started to shift
into understanding why I was
sick.
Understanding why I was sick,
and that was when I did my
training as a woman's health
coach.
So integrated woman's health
coach, which is under the
umbrella of functional medicine
and functional nutrition, that's
where it's come from.
So we, we look for root cause.
What is the root cause of
dis-ease?
And so, for me, then, after
doing some diagnostic tests to
find out what the root cause, it
was a virus called Epstein-Barr
, which, in 2012, might have
been when I had it.
It might have had it as a child
it might have reignited in 2012,
but basically my antibodies
were raised, so my body was
acting as if I had an active
virus in my body gosh, I mean
it's so.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting
like listening to you and also
watching the watching the
expressions on your face as
you're sharing that story,
because there was this huge
smile, as you said, me being me,
I was curious and I kind of,
and there was like this energy
that just came up and it was
like, and I felt sounds a little
bit more than curiosity to me,
sounds also a little bit like uh
, no, I am not just accepting
that diagnosis and I think I'm
sure for people listening,
actually, that that will
resonate those times.
Know, we all know somebody
who's received a diagnosis at
some point where they've just
been told and that's that
without really being given like
the sort of doorway or the
pathway to finding out.
Well, what else could I do that
might support me?
And I know nutrition is a huge
part of that support that we can
all access actually, isn't it?
Um?
And yeah, it's, it's really
interesting how, um, you
mentioned Rebecca earlier of
liminal and I know that's that
you know what led her to create
those you know amazing
supplements that she's created
for women experiencing menopause
was because she was basically
told by her GP go and get
something off the shelf at
Holland and Barrett and she went
.
I don't know if these are
actually the thing that I need.
I'm going to start
investigating.
So there's, there's something
really important about this
power of listening in to our own
body, our own wisdom, and
saying actually, is that is, are
we just going to take that or
are we going to step forward and
see if there's another route?
I really love that.
Thank you so much for sharing
that, and you touched on how
that experience that you had
with that HR director might have
informed the work that you're
doing now informed the work that
you're doing now.
Can you just give us a sense of
the work that you do within
organizations and how you help
them, help their people more?
Speaker 2: yeah, I think,
because what happened with me,
having lost my job, having gone
down that HR route, and how
stressful the whole of that is
when you're not well yes, I
perhaps was in perimenopause,
but that wasn't the thing that
was causing the fatigue, and so
when I realized, actually my
perimenopausal journey has been
somewhat, a lot easier compared
to the women that we hear, the
stories that we hear, the women
that are really struggling with
anxiety, rainfall, energy
problems, low libido and so
forth and so on to me, because
I'm living testimony of someone
that was I, like I said, I
thought I was healthy because I
was fit you know health and
fitness and having been so sick
for a long time you know I spent
five years housebound and and
recovering from that and
thinking, oh, my recovery from
having that Epstein-Barr
activated antibodies is meant
that actually I've kind of
bypassed all of those things
that women struggle with just
accidentally and and in that I'm
here because, because the rest
of your system was so low, maybe
it was almost like that other
stuff if, if you'd been feeling
better, you might have noticed
that other stuff, but because
you were feeling so low, it
didn't register for you.
Speaker 1: Is that what you mean
?
Speaker 2: No, what I mean is
that because my systems, my body
systems, were in such an
unhealthy state, so sub-optimal,
as I was healing from that or
recovering, we supported all of
my body system and in supporting
the whole body systems to
suppress the virus, in doing so,
it also helped the my hormonal
system as well.
Speaker 1: beautiful, yes,
because there is so much
evidence around.
So if we manage our stress
levels better, then the sex
hormones that we have can
operate more effectively, and so
we get more of the benefit from
those.
And so, yeah, beautiful, I love
that, and I think you know what
I'm hearing is.
The learning is this I'm sort
of slightly wary of using this
term, but holistic, because I
think it's had it's been sort of
messed about with the meaning
of.
It has been messed about with
but this holistic approach to
our health and not simply, like
you say, assuming that just
because we're fit, that we're
also, that the whole of the
system is operating, you know
effectively, that we take, you
know, this more kind of whole
person approach, then we're
going to be able to navigate
different things that appear on
our life's path in a way that we
might not have been able to if
we didn't take that approach.
And that, yeah, yeah, that
really really speaks to me.
Um, how, how did
self-compassion support you or
how did it feature, actually, in
that time?
Speaker 2: well, I had nothing.
I couldn't do anything else but
to be honest, because five
years is a long time to be half
bound.
Five years, a long time.
To really not know yourself
anymore, um, five years not to
have, you know, to have the, the
freedom to live your life, um,
from a economic status, yeah, is
, you know, I live on my own.
So income, no, not coming in.
You know, money was going out
but not coming in from
friendships, relationships, a
mother, um, yeah, so I had to.
I had to.
I, you know, somebody told me
you're gonna live five years in
your flat and you're really not
going to move around very much.
I'd be thinking, oh, my god,
there's no way that I can do
that, there's no way I'd rather
not be here.
And there were times when I did
really feel like that, that I'd
rather not be here.
There was really twice, should
I say, when it was quite a
strong feeling.
But I guess in all of that I
was using all my skills,
self-compassion I was
manifesting, I was speaking to
myself on a daily basis, I was
journaling, I was doing all of
those things.
Gratitude I was, I was doing
all of those because I somehow,
I knew I don't know how, but I
knew there was an answer.
I knew there was a reason why I
was sick, but I just didn't
know when it was going to come.
And I really believe in
manifestation and even if you,
you're asking why, instead of I
can't open up that conversation
you know your thoughts and your
mind then you're opening up
something else that's bigger
than you and then you know that
thing that you need will come to
you in a form, and it did.
It came at the right time, um,
and you know, I'm here and I, in
terms of the workplace stuff,
that is my, that is my mission
in the workplace, because I
think the conversation around
the menopause is such that isn't
this why we're connected, isn't
it?
Because, because of Rebecca and
she has this thought herself
and an ethos to her business, um
, is that, yes, there is this
hormones, a chain of hormones,
not just the three hormones that
we often just hear about.
There's a chain of hormones
that also affected by a chain of
glands, many they're affected
by a chain of nerves and
arteries and thoughts, like
energetically as well and bones
and microbiome.
Speaker 1: You, know, and
external environment as well.
Speaker 2: It's huge it's huge,
isn't it?
Speaker 1: And so I know that my
journey to wellness
incorporated all of those things
, and I know that every woman
can feel and look amazing in her
own way, whatever that means to
her, but she can certainly feel
vibrant and strong when we do
all that, and it might be
overwhelming, but we just do it
slowly over time, and then it
works and actually I'd like to
interject and men in there as
well, because, because the, the,
although the, the life stage
shift, the hormonal shift, um,
with the cascade of everything
that you've just talked about,
although that is a, you know, a
kind of a female experience, the
, the truth is that, you know,
whatever our gender, whatever
our life stage, this philosophy
that you're talking about really
is applicable to every single
one of us, isn't it?
And, pamela, I really really
want to honour those five years.
You know, like the, the
resilience and and the, this
sort of self-awareness that must
have been present with you to
have to have seen.
Well, these are the, these are
the practices that I need to be
investing in, rather than
putting your energy into the why
me, which is, which is a very
understandable mindset, isn't it
, when we?
We get sort of into those kind
of thought loops, but it sounds
like you really held yourself,
um, and particularly in those
two occasions that you just
touched on as well, that
willingness to believe that
there is a way through, that
this can be different, and I'm
so aware of that phrase.
You know this too, shall pass.
And also, I really want to call
out what you just said about how
, sometimes this experience of
becoming well, or the journey to
the feeling that we want to get
to, can look so long and can
feel so overwhelming that it
just becomes another stick to
beat ourselves up with.
You know, we often hear about
this, don't we?
How like wellness can become
yet another like burden, whereas
actually, as you say, you know,
if we go gently and just start
with something small, some tiny
little thing, that's a little
gift to ourselves, that can be,
you know, so momentous actually
and move us forward.
I'm really interested in how,
the way that you approach the
work that you do in
organisations, how you see that
influencing, um, the way
organizations actually respond
to the whole menopause,
perimenopause, post-menopause
experience yeah, the the work.
Speaker 2: The companies that
I've worked with are very, very.
When I speak about the
menopause, that whole three
phases of menopause that you
just mentioned, a lot of
companies are surprised in terms
of how I speak about it.
Surprised in terms of how I
speak about it because there was
a strong narrative.
Isn't there?
That's out there, the really
strong, and so that's what
everybody believes, that's what
it is, um, so when I speak about
it, I the feedback that I get
is that I've never heard it
spoke about in that way.
Speaker 1: Can you define in
sort of two or three sentences
like how what are your headlines
that you say in terms of how
you speak about it?
Speaker 2: so I I one of the
things I I really like to do is
is just think about our bodies
as a jenga block.
You know the game jenga, yeah,
and so you know, when you make
the tower block and you have
it's like an encasing, isn't it?
I think it's on the outside of
it, then you make the block and
then you remove the block and
it's then you remove the case
and it stands freely on its own.
But I consider that little case
in our mother like this is us
the block as women, and we
remove the, the support which is
our mothers and we are, you
know, us, and each block
represents, if an incident, an
event in your life, an illness,
a medication, a relationship
breakdown, a loss in some way,
some limiting beliefs that
you've been told about yourself,
racism, whatever, sexism, all
of it, and each, each block
represents one of those.
So, for everything that you've
gone through to this point in
your life, now we just take a
block out and you can see that
the jenga block then becomes a
bit unstable and then the
hormones are like an orchestra,
a finely tuned orchestra, but
because of the jenga block,
having these little blocks taken
out and it's a bit unstable,
some of them may take two blocks
out, for example.
A lot, you know something tragic
might take one or two blocks
but makes it even more unstable,
maybe around your 20s and 30s
or something, yeah, and that
then affects the orchestra.
So the orchestra is not
sub-intuned anymore, the
celloist isn't help anymore, so
one man down or one person down,
and then as you go through life
to get to perimenopause, the
orchestra is malfunctioning
anyway as it was further
impacting the djenga block and
you can start to see that the
djenga block becomes even more
destabilized than affecting the
orchestra and you can see two
together then are malfunctioning
not as well.
And so when people realize
actually it's not just orchestra
, it's all these other things,
these life events, these
medications, these thought
patterns, these over exercising,
these, you know, living up to
patriarchy, society rules and
everything else that goes with
it, all of those things that
affects that, and I think when
women and men that I work with
in an organisation understand
that, they sit back and go oh,
it's not just the orchestra,
beautiful.
Speaker 1: That is so, that's so
beautiful, because I know your
analogy about the orchestra.
I'm familiar with that one and
I've always very much liked it.
But the Jenga, I think, is
really, it's really really
interesting to this
understanding that actually the
timing of these hormonal changes
, um, in alignment with because
often we talk about, you know,
with uh in midlife we become the
sandwich generation.
We've got, you know, kids, uh,
maybe quite young kids these
days actually, or kids going
through their own hormonal
changes or or leaving home.
So that causes that's a stress
in the family system and in the
internal system.
And we've got aging parents or,
um, or we've got, uh,
additional responsibilities at
work because we're more senior
or whatever it might be.
So we get kind of squashed in
all directions.
So I've I've often sort of
thought about it in that sense.
But there's something about.
I mean, it's slightly
uncomfortable for me actually to
sort of think about this in
terms of when I apply that to my
own experience of menopause,
and that time I had early
menopause, but if I look at the
woman I was then and someone had
said that Jenga example, I
think I might have gone.
Oh yeah, that feels very
resonant and and and I think
I've been putting my blocks back
in and I suppose that's that's
really the work, isn't?
It is being able to understand
okay, well, there's this grief
here.
What does this, what does this
experience of this grief need in
order to be restored, to bring
that part of me back into place
and to start to feel whole again
?
Yeah, that's really.
It's a really lovely imagery and
I can imagine, having been a
senior exec in big organisations
, that that is quite an unusual
way of talking about it, because
often what we're looking for is
a quick fix, isn't it?
We want an organization I mean,
you've touched on racism, you
know we want an organization to
come in talk to us about bias
and give us some really sort of
quick hits, quick wins, and then
we can tick that box and go.
We no longer have unconscious
bias in this organization, which
is obviously the most ludicrous
thing, because unconscious bias
is unconscious.
But in exactly the same way,
I've seen the same thing happen
with the way that menopause has
been treated.
There are a number of With the
way that menopause has been
treated.
There are a number of, you know
, organizations going into big
companies talking about
menopause as though it's an
affliction.
One of my favorite headlines was
menopause can strike at any
time.
I'd just like to pause there
for the shocked expressions on
our faces.
But, um, you know, and actually
being able to come at this from
such a human, centered, rooted
place that really talks about
this is the whole person we are
talking about.
Not just, not just, you know,
send them off to a doctor and
get HRT as the only answer.
Um, that feels really, really
powerful.
Um, what's the impact that
you're seeing that talking in
this way has well, I think, with
the impact.
Speaker 2: So, because it
companies are measuring things,
but I think it's going to take
time and and what I'm finding is
that because there are these
larger companies going in.
Speaker 1: Yes, we're both.
We're both being very careful
about what we're saying, but,
yes, we recognize that that some
of it perhaps is a little
two-dimensional yeah, yeah, yeah
.
Speaker 2: So the companies that
I've worked with are okay, well
, let's just digest this.
Maybe they've had menopause
training before and it's kind of
blown their minds really,
because, because it was this one
dimension um story about what
it is, and so, you know, women
are kind of, and you know males
in the organizations are kind of
thinking, well, what, how can
we truly, truly, truly help
these women to maintain their
roles in their job and and work
for as long as they want to work
for, and then the next
generation of women that are
coming up as well, that are in
their mid-30s right now?
You know what's it going to be
like for them in 10 years?
So the work is ongoing, really,
and I say organizations, the
ones I've worked with, are open
to having that conversation um
ongoing and and also the other
thing that I like about the ones
companies I've worked with,
they are really sort of open to
taking on the things that I
share with them, that holistic
um approach that you talked
about earlier.
So it's a wider thing and I
think about workplace and
menopause.
It needs to be a relationship
with so many partners and so
many um relationships.
Yes, it's HR, it is managers,
line managers, the person that's
going through it, her
colleagues in the workplace,
male or female, young or old.
Um, you know ethnicity,
whatever her gp, perhaps, and
then maybe it is her yoga
teacher, maybe it is her
mindfulness teacher, maybe it is
a nutritionist, maybe you know.
Speaker 1: So it's like a
nutritionist, maybe you know.
So it's like maybe it's also
her partner.
Speaker 2: Yeah children
friendship group.
Yeah, and the wider community
as well, but it is that, you
know, in the Jenga blog, as
we're like putting things back
into place.
You know, we know that it takes
a village to raise a child, but
it's a village to to support us
all, isn't it?
Speaker 1: do you know that's?
That is an expression that I
have been, that's been going
through my head recently.
Actually, you've really this
idea that that, in order for any
one of us to feel okay I've
been coining this word to
gathering, this idea of not
gathering, because that implies
someone's like telling us to do
it, but a sense of coming
together, so togethering around
around each other, in order to
to that inter dependence that we
actually have, the way that we
are interdependent and
supportive of each other, rather
than codependent or dependent
or independent, which means sort
of isolated.
But this sense of coming
together and yeah, it does, it
takes a village.
We all need it.
You know, even those of us who
are, you know, deeply, deeply
private or, you know, really
really crave our own space and
our own company.
Even us, like we need, need
that, that connection with
others.
And and I think it's so
interesting, you know you're
sort of what you're doing like
enabling is it's so logical,
isn't it?
It's?
It's it's so obvious and I
think so often when we are,
particularly if we're in the
workplace, our mindset becomes
workplace focused the fact that
every single person there is a
uh, you know, a partner, a
parent, a child, a friend,
volunteer, uh, you know,
whatever.
All these other aspects of
ourselves are also also really
important parts of how we show
up in the workplace as well yeah
100 percent.
Um, so you won.
You won an award recently,
which was the thing that
prompted me to reach out to you.
Can you, can you tell us about
it?
Speaker 2: yeah, so I won an
award for my contribution to the
BSI um menstruation,
menstruation health and
menopause workplace guidance um,
which is the first of its kind
and it's been downloaded in over
800 countries.
So we won the award for the
social impact for that guidance
um, which is incredible really
to be on.
You know.
Have my name there, um, as
being part of the community or
committee that um, you know, put
the guidance together and the
guidance is is a you, something
that organizations can use
workable tools in there.
And while I think one of the
things that I contributed to was
the intersectionality bit
around, you know, nuances around
race and ethnicity and those
things that affect black women
that organizations might not
even be aware of, for example,
fibroids it's really highly
prevalent amongst our community.
We don't know why.
There's some research that's
just stressed that it's to do
with circulating higher levels
of oestrogen, or the
testosterone aromatizes, so it
transforms into more oestrogen,
so we have more circulating
oestrogen in our bodies.
Um, why we what we know?
One of the reasons why we know
that testosterone aromatizes
into oestrogen is that cortisol.
So they think that black women
are obviously more sensitive,
greater amount of stress.
Yeah, more sensitive, yeah,
sensitive cortisol and therefore
, you know, they're growing more
fibroids.
They believe, um, but there's
very little research into that
anyway, and it is american as
well.
That's where the research is
coming from too, um, but
nonetheless it is more prevalent
amongst our community community
, and therefore those women are
likely to enter menopause much
earlier as a hysterectom, even
if they keep the ovaries there.
So you know, then there's
autoimmune is really prevalent
amongst our community.
You know sickle cell, other
autoimmunities as well.
When the hormones start to
change in the perimenopause,
this progesterone acts like a
anti-histamine and so when
oestrogen is out, when it's out
of balance that progesterone and
oestrogen, we've got more
oestrogen anyway, haven't we and
our body become dominant, um,
and therefore autoimmunity can
be and therefore autoimmunity
can be exaggerated at that point
too for every woman.
But I think we just need to
talk about that in terms of you
know how that affects black
women in the workplace.
And then there's conversations
around, beliefs around, you know
.
You know there's notions that
black women are stronger is.
We've seen that in the, you
know, the birthing, childbirth
situations are um five times
more likely to die in childbirth
because they're not listened to
um.
So it's similar that in in
menopause as well, and black
women generally look younger
than their work counterparts and
they aren't taken seriously at
the GP.
There's also the angry black
woman.
You know not having the same
kind of allowances in the
workplace.
If she's having a one of those
typical menopausal symptoms of
feeling irritated, you know her
white counterpart is likely to
experience a different response
or support than a than black
woman.
So it's those kind of
conversations that organisations
need to be aware of as well
when we're talking about the
menopause.
Whether they're true or not we
don't know, but this is what we
hear from black women.
So the guidance, the workplace
guidance, has so many tools in
there that an employer can take
and really start to make a
change.
But, as we know, a guidance is
saying you've got to implement
it, it's got to be part of the
ecosystem of the company.
Everybody needs to be on board
with that, and it's similar to
when I work with women on a
one-to-one.
You know you can know the stuff
, you can google, you can.
You know you can read, but are
you doing it?
Speaker 1: and I.
Well, it comes back to to what
I was saying about.
You know, the sort of
unconscious bias training that I
, you know that was happening a
lot when I was in the workplace
a few years ago and so much of
that I saw was really a tick box
exercise.
You know, it might have started
from a good place, but the way
it actually ended up getting
delivered was like, right, we've
got to get this done, as
opposed to there is something
really important in here for our
cultural sort of identity and
focusing on what that shift
could be rather than the getting
done thing.
So you're, I mean, you're so
right, I mean it sounds, it
sounds absolutely brilliant what
you've contributed to and the
fact that that material is there
for organisations, because
there are so many nuances in
there.
And you're so right.
Of course, you know, if you
don't have the experience of
being a black woman going
through or navigating
perimenopause, it's very hard to
to stand in her shoes, just as
it's very hard to stand in any
one person's shoes if you don't
have that direct lived
experience.
Um, and it also it kind of
reminds me of, uh, you know, one
of the things that I became
very aware of when I started
working with women going through
menopause was the number of
women I was meeting who um had
and now I'm having complete
brain fog, which is my
post-menopausal um lag, uh,
endometriosis and the absolute
lack of awareness that, if you
you know a woman experiencing
endometriosis is is going to be
very likely, because of her
treatment, experiencing
perimenopausal symptoms as well.
And even doctors not even
telling their patients that is
what they're going to experience
.
So you know, when we layer all
of this stuff in and we talk
about the Jenga stack and we
talk about the orchestra, it
becomes even clearer.
You know why, why this
experience can be so challenging
, not just for the individual,
but also for those who are maybe
with the best intentions, are
trying to do the right thing,
but if we don't have the
information, it's very hard to
do.
That, isn't it?
Um, I'm also sorry though.
Speaker 2: So all those
conditions endometriosis, pcos,
pmdd, fibromyalgia, chronic
fatigue, fibroids, um, and then
the neurodiverse as well.
On top of that, all of those.
You then apply an imbalanced
hormone to any of those things,
she's not going to feel great.
Speaker 1: No, it's no surprise,
is it?
It's no surprise that we don't
feel great in those moments,
yeah, and I mean, you know all
of my work is grounded in
compassion and I know it's
absolutely threaded through
everything that you do as well,
and I just sort of you know,
with everything that we say
today, the importance of holding
ourselves with compassion and
holding each other with
compassion, as we're.
You know, there isn't
necessarily a script for how to
navigate all of this stuff, um,
but there is wisdom that we can
lean on and if we hold it with
compassion, then that will make
it easier.
And I kind of thinking back to
your HR director and I just kind
of sounds like maybe if he'd
had this or heard this
conversation before he spoke
with you, it might have really
helped him with how he navigated
that conversation with you.
Yeah, oh, honestly, it so, so
interesting listening to you and
I will share your details,
obviously, so that if people do
want to explore, you know, the
wisdom that you can bring, uh,
in their place of work.
Um, I think it would be.
It feels like something that
everyone needs to talk to you.
To be honest, pamela, I think
I'm going to ask you a question,
now that I ask all of my guests
.
In fact, I'd like to ask you
something else first before I do
that.
But, um, what's your sense of
the most the most important
thing that an organization, um,
or someone who's leading others
needs to be aware of?
What's your sense of like the
most important thing they can
hold true?
Speaker 2: The most important
thing?
Wow, yeah, just one thing, I
think.
If you are a leader of an
organization and you hold the
purse strings, so where do you
invest your money?
Is important.
Are you investing it in the
right place?
are you investing it in those
people who are menstruating, who
are having challenges?
Are they getting the right
support in the workplace?
Because I remember working with
an organization and I was
running a small group of
coaching sessions for the
organization and there's one
lady in there that was south
asian and she hadn't spoken
about menopause to anybody, no
one.
She couldn't speak about it at
home, she didn't talk about it
at work.
She loved the job.
She had fear of losing the job
because she couldn't remember
anything and she broke down in
that space.
So if that organization didn't
think you know, we're not just
going to do a lunchtime learn,
we're not just going to pay for
leaders to have this, this, and
that they actually invested in
their team, gave her the space
to be heard and seen and then
tools to navigate her journey,
so I guess that would be the one
thing I would wish for an
organization to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very powerful
and I also, you know, and
fundamentally I love the fact
that you brought it back to, to
that investment, because one of
the things that organizations
are often very good at doing is
turning putting the onus onto
the individual.
Um and you know, I see that
sort of in the past with like
sort of mental health, um sort
of programs, you know, putting
the onus back onto the
individual or the work that I do
, um supporting people with,
like navigating big changes in
their lives and and that
essentially means getting that
individual to invest in
themselves and, whether that's
financial or in terms of time or
energy, um, the onus gets put
over there.
But actually there is a
responsibility and a huge value
to the organization to be able
to provide those kinds of spaces
, because for that woman to be
able to speak openly in a about
something that may have been
layered with a whole load of
complexity, that builds loyalty
and that builds, you know,
longevity, and that means that
you get to maintain that member
of staff and it's much cheaper
to keep somebody than it is to
recruit someone new, says the ex
HR director.
You know it's so there is so
much value in where that money
gets spent.
So, yeah, brilliant, I think.
Often we're a bit kind of shy
about talking about money, but
it's important, obviously, you
know.
Okay, now, all right, I'll ask
you my other question then.
This is more about you, pamela.
Okay, so if this part of your
life was a chapter in your book
of life, what would the chapter
heading be called?
Speaker 2: oh, my goodness, some
of this conversation with a
friend recently, literally this
week, I'm sure and said those
exact words no, that's hilarious
, and so what's your answer?
Speaker 1: yeah, so I'm the star
in the in the book, the main
character, and right now I would
say I feel I am right now and
how marvelous that, as a 58 year
old woman in perimenopause, you
are sitting here with the most
glorious smile on your face
saying Phoenix Rising.
That is turning so much of the
narrative just in that, turning
so much of the narrative on its
head, and that is bloody
wonderful.
I think.
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks so much for being here.
I've absolutely loved it.
Thank you.